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Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by hyc＠symas.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

quanah(a)zimbra.com wrote: > --On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:52 PM +0000 john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > >> AFAIK it is not the standard LDAP changelog - let me know if I'm wrong. We >> don't want to write specific code for each LDAP server that doesn't >> conform to the LDAP (draft I know) standard. > > Please fix your client to stop top-posting. > > With openldap, you have two choices. I don't know which draft you are > referring to, so I can't say if either conforms with what the other > directory servers do. > > slapo-auditlog > slapo-accesslog accesslog conforms to this draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chu-ldap-logschema-00 -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/

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Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by hyc＠symas.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

John Unsworth wrote: >>> There are no other directory servers in existence that can scale to the > level that OpenLDAP does and perform well at that scale. > > How do you justify/prove that statement? Our (Symas) customers tell us which directory server they're migrating from when they come to us. We perform benchmarks periodically as well. Nothing else comes close. Come to LDAPCon this year, we'll be presenting our latest benchmark results then. > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Chu [mailto:hyc@symas.com] > Sent: 17 September 2013 20:52 > To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org > Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection > fail > > john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: >> Products other than browsers use LDAP servers. Our product is a meta >> directory that watches for changes on multiple data sources (LDAP, >> Databases, SAP, ...) and reconciles any changes across the complete >> set of sources according to data filtering and transformation rules. >> However sometimes it is necessary to read the whole data set - for >> example when a new data server is added, or when changes may have been >> missed for any reason, or when an 'audit' type operation is required >> to ensure that all data sources are consistent. LDAP servers we >> connect to typically contain thousands if not millions of entries. > > OpenLDAP is regularly used in production by large telcos with billions of > entries. There are no other directory servers in existence that can scale to > the level that OpenLDAP does and perform well at that scale. > >> Reading the lot without paging - >> although we can do it - is very inefficient both in terms of LDAP >> resources and application resources. > > That's utter nonsense. The amount of data is the same no matter how many > pieces you slice it into. It is *more* inefficient to slice it into multiple > requests. > >> The directory is read using multiple parallel paged searches across >> different branches on a single connection. Every directory we have >> used except OpenLDAP can manage this effectively. > >> In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way >> we have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and >> compare with what was read last time. > > So you're saying you're connecting to OpenLDAP servers from version 2.1 or > older, from before syncrepl or the accesslog or changelog overlays existed. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Ströder [mailto:michael@stroeder.com] >> Sent: 17 September 2013 20:20 >> To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org >> Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one >> connection fail >> >> john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: >>> I would also be interested to understand why " paged results is >>> inherently flawed". >> >> Although being the author of an interactive LDAP UI client I still >> wonder why people want paged results (or tree browsing). >> >> If you have so many results you should narrow the search criteria. >> Browsing/paging is pretty inefficient working style. >> >> Ciao, Michael. >> >> >> >> >> > > -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by quanah＠zimbra.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

--On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:52 PM +0000 john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > AFAIK it is not the standard LDAP changelog - let me know if I'm wrong. We > don't want to write specific code for each LDAP server that doesn't > conform to the LDAP (draft I know) standard. Please fix your client to stop top-posting. With openldap, you have two choices. I don't know which draft you are referring to, so I can't say if either conforms with what the other directory servers do. slapo-auditlog slapo-accesslog Pick your path. --Quanah -- Quanah Gibson-Mount Lead Engineer Zimbra Software, LLC -------------------- Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by john.unsworth＠cp.net 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

>> There are no other directory servers in existence that can scale to the level that OpenLDAP does and perform well at that scale. How do you justify/prove that statement? -----Original Message----- From: Howard Chu [mailto:hyc@symas.com] Sent: 17 September 2013 20:52 To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > Products other than browsers use LDAP servers. Our product is a meta > directory that watches for changes on multiple data sources (LDAP, > Databases, SAP, ...) and reconciles any changes across the complete > set of sources according to data filtering and transformation rules. > However sometimes it is necessary to read the whole data set - for > example when a new data server is added, or when changes may have been > missed for any reason, or when an 'audit' type operation is required > to ensure that all data sources are consistent. LDAP servers we > connect to typically contain thousands if not millions of entries. OpenLDAP is regularly used in production by large telcos with billions of entries. There are no other directory servers in existence that can scale to the level that OpenLDAP does and perform well at that scale. > Reading the lot without paging - > although we can do it - is very inefficient both in terms of LDAP > resources and application resources. That's utter nonsense. The amount of data is the same no matter how many pieces you slice it into. It is *more* inefficient to slice it into multiple requests. > The directory is read using multiple parallel paged searches across > different branches on a single connection. Every directory we have > used except OpenLDAP can manage this effectively. > In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way > we have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and > compare with what was read last time. So you're saying you're connecting to OpenLDAP servers from version 2.1 or older, from before syncrepl or the accesslog or changelog overlays existed. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Ströder [mailto:michael@stroeder.com] > Sent: 17 September 2013 20:20 > To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org > Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one > connection fail > > john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: >> I would also be interested to understand why " paged results is >> inherently flawed". > > Although being the author of an interactive LDAP UI client I still > wonder why people want paged results (or tree browsing). > > If you have so many results you should narrow the search criteria. > Browsing/paging is pretty inefficient working style. > > Ciao, Michael. > > > > > -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by john.unsworth＠cp.net 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

AFAIK it is not the standard LDAP changelog - let me know if I'm wrong. We don't want to write specific code for each LDAP server that doesn't conform to the LDAP (draft I know) standard. -----Original Message----- From: Quanah Gibson-Mount [mailto:quanah@zimbra.com] Sent: 17 September 2013 20:49 To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org Subject: RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail --On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:34 PM +0000 john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way > we have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and > compare with what was read last time. If you think that, then apparently you haven't spent time reading the documentation. OpenLDAP has had a changelog since at least OpenLDAP 2.3, if you enable it. I use it for auditing changes all the time. --Quanah -- Quanah Gibson-Mount Lead Engineer Zimbra Software, LLC -------------------- Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration

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Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by hyc＠symas.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > Products other than browsers use LDAP servers. Our product is a meta > directory that watches for changes on multiple data sources (LDAP, > Databases, SAP, ...) and reconciles any changes across the complete set of > sources according to data filtering and transformation rules. However > sometimes it is necessary to read the whole data set - for example when a > new data server is added, or when changes may have been missed for any > reason, or when an 'audit' type operation is required to ensure that all > data sources are consistent. LDAP servers we connect to typically contain > thousands if not millions of entries. OpenLDAP is regularly used in production by large telcos with billions of entries. There are no other directory servers in existence that can scale to the level that OpenLDAP does and perform well at that scale. > Reading the lot without paging - > although we can do it - is very inefficient both in terms of LDAP resources > and application resources. That's utter nonsense. The amount of data is the same no matter how many pieces you slice it into. It is *more* inefficient to slice it into multiple requests. > The directory is read using multiple parallel > paged searches across different branches on a single connection. Every > directory we have used except OpenLDAP can manage this effectively. > In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way we > have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and compare with > what was read last time. So you're saying you're connecting to OpenLDAP servers from version 2.1 or older, from before syncrepl or the accesslog or changelog overlays existed. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Ströder [mailto:michael@stroeder.com] > Sent: 17 September 2013 20:20 > To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org > Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection > fail > > john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: >> I would also be interested to understand why " paged results is inherently >> flawed". > > Although being the author of an interactive LDAP UI client I still wonder > why > people want paged results (or tree browsing). > > If you have so many results you should narrow the search criteria. > Browsing/paging is pretty inefficient working style. > > Ciao, Michael. > > > > > -- -- Howard Chu CTO, Symas Corp. http://www.symas.com Director, Highland Sun http://highlandsun.com/hyc/ Chief Architect, OpenLDAP http://www.openldap.org/project/

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by quanah＠zimbra.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

--On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:34 PM +0000 john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way we > have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and compare > with what was read last time. If you think that, then apparently you haven't spent time reading the documentation. OpenLDAP has had a changelog since at least OpenLDAP 2.3, if you enable it. I use it for auditing changes all the time. --Quanah -- Quanah Gibson-Mount Lead Engineer Zimbra Software, LLC -------------------- Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by john.unsworth＠cp.net 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

Products other than browsers use LDAP servers. Our product is a meta directory that watches for changes on multiple data sources (LDAP, Databases, SAP, ...) and reconciles any changes across the complete set of sources according to data filtering and transformation rules. However sometimes it is necessary to read the whole data set - for example when a new data server is added, or when changes may have been missed for any reason, or when an 'audit' type operation is required to ensure that all data sources are consistent. LDAP servers we connect to typically contain thousands if not millions of entries. Reading the lot without paging - although we can do it - is very inefficient both in terms of LDAP resources and application resources. The directory is read using multiple parallel paged searches across different branches on a single connection. Every directory we have used except OpenLDAP can manage this effectively. In the case of OpenLDAP there is no LDAP changelog and so the only way we have of discovering changes is to read the whole directory and compare with what was read last time. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Ströder [mailto:michael@stroeder.com] Sent: 17 September 2013 20:20 To: john.unsworth(a)cp.net; openldap-its(a)openldap.org Subject: Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail john.unsworth(a)cp.net wrote: > I would also be interested to understand why " paged results is inherently > flawed". Although being the author of an interactive LDAP UI client I still wonder why people want paged results (or tree browsing). If you have so many results you should narrow the search criteria. Browsing/paging is pretty inefficient working style. Ciao, Michael.

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Re: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by michael＠stroeder.com 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

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RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail
by john.unsworth＠cp.net 17 Sep '13

17 Sep '13

I would also be interested to understand why " paged results is inherently flawed". -----Original Message----- From: John Unsworth [mailto:john.unsworth@cp.net] Sent: 17 September 2013 12:07 To: 'Pierangelo Masarati' Cc: 'openldap-its(a)openldap.org' Subject: RE: (ITS#7698) Multiple Paged search requests on one connection fail Thank you for your reply. >> Technically speaking, paged results consists of perfectly >> independent operations from the protocol point of view Yes but the results have not all been retrieved - only the first page full - and further operations are needed to get the additional results. Hence paged searches are not really independent but are linked by the cookie. The results are supposed to remain available so that additional searches using the same cookie can retrieve them. Every other LDAP server I have come across allows multiple concurrent paged searches on a single connection. The RFC does seem to allow the OpenLDAP behaviour but it seems extremely restrictive to me. It should at least be well documented. -----Original Message----- From: Pierangelo Masarati [mailto:pierangelo.masarati@polimi.it] <snip> No, it's correct (at least, that's the intended behavior). The operation structure is only persistent for the duration of the operation, whereas the connection structure persists for the duration of the connection. Technically speaking, paged results consists of perfectly independent operations from the protocol point of view, so persistent state is saved in the connection structure. Of course, multiple cookies could be stored, but since paged results is inherently flawed, it was decided to handle it this way. Clients need to use a dedicated connection for search operations that use the paged results control. p. -- Pierangelo Masarati Associate Professor Dipartimento di Scienze e Tecnologie Aerospaziali Politecnico di Milano

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